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Soooo….we gonna talk about it?


esi

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Demands apology or Twitch is telling the world…”you can terminate anyone whenever you feel like it”…and “I am laying down the law”. I mean he can’t be this dense and self-important right? Twitch does this all the time…to literally ANYONE they want..with zero fucks given. 
This is why Phil gets mocked and fucked with…just tell Twitch fuck the hell off and be done. Instead, you get a rant that will be meme’d endlessly.  
 

Edited by esi
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Girl literally flashed her Vag on stream and only got suspended for a few days, so yeah Twitch is biased. They only care about streamers who bring in the biggest $.

They accuse Phil of hate speech, yet they don't explain what he's in trouble for? Suspicious as fuck.

What did he say to get himself banned??

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He knows that Twitch is very unlikely to bother responding to his demands. He was already implementing things to switch to YouTube and saying that he was glad he didn't do all that stuff on Twitch that would have been a waste of time if he was going to stay. Even if Twitch was to give him partnership back, I'm skeptical he'd even go back after seeing how much he has been getting on YouTube instead. The email he sent and the video don't seem like they'll have any purpose.

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3 minutes ago, Bustfield said:

So sorry I think its another WWE style work from Phil to play victim mode again and age another 2 years every six months because he has to maintain every lie he's ever told to convince his 10 whales to give him money even though it will never, ever, be enough.

?????

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its just business. life isnt fair. its their website. If twitch says u did something wrong and kicked you out, they dont need to provide evidence and prove to u since they alrdy stated which terms u violated. U could ask, u could find evidence to counter the claim, or u could sue if u feel u did nothing wrong. But they have no need to respond to any of phils demands.

If i am twitch, if i feel generous i might provide some proof given that its easy to find and not too much work. But unless hes suing, im not gonna put my effort on a partnership that has alrdy been decided to be terminate. Its gonna be automatic response from here on out. Phils public image isnt that great to begin with and hes not going to cause that much stir in twitch reputation (its alrdy shit anyways tho). So why should twitch care?

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I think Twitch wanted Phil gone and did what it took to make that happen. I seriously doubt whether Phil used ACUTAL hate slurs and such....but he's gone on a bunch of pretty vulgar rants that have absolutely been directed at people...so with Twitch's TOS being purposefully general and vague, they can probably justify it in a court of law. 

IMO Twitch most likely got tired of the money/bills/marathon talks. They probably didn't like the optics of it. It's like I said...I've never seen another streamer emphasize money and the absolute necessity of "support" like Phil. And you can bring up the hot tub shit all you want...Twitch just slapped down one of the biggest in Amouranth, by suspending advertising on her channel. I think we'll see "advertiser friendly" brought up a lot more in the coming months. 

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Twitch can kick anyone out of the Partnership for any reason, "with or without cause", (for most if not all contracts). However the reason they're giving Phil is what's bothering him: "inappropriate conduct involving hateful slurs". What is a "hateful slur"?

If you go to the website, the term is not defined, so that already blurs how one should interpret that section. But when I searched it online, it just seems to be something that either insults or degrades someone. Not only that, but the Twitch "slur-list" is not public & they look at the context, so it's entirely subjective:

Slurs.thumb.png.9fd5055de8c38208cc5ad468a0584c78.png

Twitch has no obligation to show evidence of anything, and that's one of the points in their contracts. If you signed that, you should be prepared for their arbitrary decision making.

[Note: I actually dislike this way of doing business, but that's irrelevant here.]


TwitchCG.thumb.png.89191913a5c2c9207db6301ded3af1d1.png

 

https://www.twitch.tv/p/en/legal/community-guidelines/harassment/


As to why they have not banned him from the platform, but just unpartnered him?

You can speculate about the reason, but they don't need to go together. It's clear Twitch will do whatever they want when it comes to punishing users, (E.g: Alinity), so if they decide to take away your Partner status without banning you, they can.

Is it consistent? No, but they can.

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9 minutes ago, MoraMoria said:

Twitch can kick anyone out of the Partnership for any reason, "with or without cause", (for most if not all contracts). However the reason they're giving Phil is what's bothering him: "inappropriate conduct involving hateful slurs". What is a "hateful slur"?

If you go to the website, the term is not defined, so that already blurs how one should interpret that section. But when I searched it online, it just seems to be something that either insults or degrades someone. Not only that, but the Twitch "slur-list" is not public & they look at the context, so it's entirely subjective:

Slurs.thumb.png.9fd5055de8c38208cc5ad468a0584c78.png

Twitch has no obligation to show evidence of anything, and that's one of the points in their contracts. If you signed that, you should be prepared for their arbitrary decision making.

[Note: I actually dislike this way of doing business, but that's irrelevant here.]


TwitchCG.thumb.png.89191913a5c2c9207db6301ded3af1d1.png

 

https://www.twitch.tv/p/en/legal/community-guidelines/harassment/


As to why they have not banned him from the platform, but just unpartnered him?

You can speculate about the reason, but they don't need to go together. It's clear Twitch will do whatever they want when it comes to punishing users, (E.g: Alinity), so if they decide to take away your Partner status without banning you, they can.

Is it consistent? No, but they can.

THIS RIGHT HERE

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It isn't hard to imagine that the rules for Twitch partnership and much more stringent than the rules for normal users. It is very possible that Twitch doesn't want someone making money through them and their tools if they violate some rules. It also isn't hard to imagine what things he has said in the past that kept counting against him when people reported it. A normal user might spam slurs in chats and get banned from the channel but that doesn't mean Twitch will automatically ban them off of the entire site. I'm sure there is much less scrutiny for normal users and streamers compared to partnered streamers.

And looking at that video and his tweets, he seems to think hateful slurs are just about racial and sexual slurs. He also believes his streams are more tame than other streamers. He just doesn't understand the scope of what Twitch is talking about or what people were telling him in his stream yesterday. He thinks he has become a lot more tame and more positive but plenty of people will disagree with that for a lot of reasons.

Edited by Another_Derich
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2 hours ago, MoraMoria said:

Twitch can kick anyone out of the Partnership for any reason, "with or without cause", (for most if not all contracts). However the reason they're giving Phil is what's bothering him: "inappropriate conduct involving hateful slurs". What is a "hateful slur"?

If you go to the website, the term is not defined, so that already blurs how one should interpret that section. But when I searched it online, it just seems to be something that either insults or degrades someone. Not only that, but the Twitch "slur-list" is not public & they look at the context, so it's entirely subjective:

Slurs.thumb.png.9fd5055de8c38208cc5ad468a0584c78.png

Twitch has no obligation to show evidence of anything, and that's one of the points in their contracts. If you signed that, you should be prepared for their arbitrary decision making.

[Note: I actually dislike this way of doing business, but that's irrelevant here.]


TwitchCG.thumb.png.89191913a5c2c9207db6301ded3af1d1.png

 

https://www.twitch.tv/p/en/legal/community-guidelines/harassment/


As to why they have not banned him from the platform, but just unpartnered him?

You can speculate about the reason, but they don't need to go together. It's clear Twitch will do whatever they want when it comes to punishing users, (E.g: Alinity), so if they decide to take away your Partner status without banning you, they can.

Is it consistent? No, but they can.

Pretty much this... there's already streamers like avoidingthepuddle who go out of their way to avoid saying the word "retard" because Twitch has told him that's a no-no and to avoid doing it before, and DSP calls people retards pretty frequently, as well as using a million other terms to insult their mental health or simply calling them "fucked in the head", there's also a reason people like Aris can get away with calling his chat cock-sucking bitches every stream, because he doesn't ever target the people by name, which Phil also does frequently. Their section on hateful conduct also makes it pretty clear that the intent and the way the term is used matters a lot to them too, and DSP always uses these terms to disparage random trolls in his stream chats. 

He also thinks hateful slurs only include racial/homophobic slurs, which I think the reason for that is probably because of the short ban Twitch gave him recently over him misspeaking on stream.

Besides that, people have already dug up clips of Phil on Twitch streams saying stuff like "If you wanna listen to some faggot insult some homo, then go to Youtube!" -- he really didn't do himself a favor by saying he's never ever said racial or homophobic slurs while streaming on Twitch.

Edited by wheredoisignup
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21 hours ago, esi said:

Demands apology or Twitch is telling the world…”you can terminate anyone whenever you feel like it”…and “I am laying down the law”. I mean he can’t be this dense and self-important right? Twitch does this all the time…to literally ANYONE they want..with zero fucks given. 
This is why Phil gets mocked and fucked with…just tell Twitch fuck the hell off and be done. Instead, you get a rant that will be meme’d endlessly.  
 

There's such a thing as a policy kid.

If he didn't break the TOS then he has every right to complain.

Funny thing is they never pointed out ONE hateful slur ever ever ever then one day pretend he repeatedly used it. Thats not helpful.

There literally saying he got banned for saying the first four letters of negative which happened AFTER he got suspended. ROFL.

Twitch make it up as they go along the fucking morons.

Edited by WorthIts
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6 hours ago, WorthIts said:

There's such a thing as a policy kid.

If he didn't break the TOS then he has every right to complain.

Funny thing is they never pointed out ONE hateful slur ever ever ever then one day pretend he repeatedly used it. Thats not helpful.

There literally saying he got banned for saying the first four letters of negative which happened AFTER he got suspended. ROFL.

Twitch make it up as they go along the fucking morons.

Guy has called people faggots on his stream and calls people retards frequently, Twitch themselves doesn't take kindly to the term "retard" or anything involving using mental illness as an insult... lol

Are you kidding me

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8 hours ago, WorthIts said:

There's such a thing as a policy kid.

If he didn't break the TOS then he has every right to complain.

Funny thing is they never pointed out ONE hateful slur ever ever ever then one day pretend he repeatedly used it. Thats not helpful.

There literally saying he got banned for saying the first four letters of negative which happened AFTER he got suspended. ROFL.

Twitch make it up as they go along the fucking morons.

well yea he has the right to complain if he feel he didnt break it. But twitch says otherwise and his complaining wont make them do anything.

His only way to prove hes right is sue but he isnt going to do it. Then he just have to accept his lost.

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DSP is confusing his PARTNERSHIP rules/policies and TWITCH rules/policies. His partnership is representing twitch and may have policies as a representative in being more gracious to viewers.

His twitch streaming may be more laxed in relating to streamers.

Also there maybe a different management who may actually enforce the policies stricter than before. Things change all the time.

Also, the trolls may be complaining more than before, but he is right about at least being warned.

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14 hours ago, WorthIts said:

There's such a thing as a policy kid.

If he didn't break the TOS then he has every right to complain.

Funny thing is they never pointed out ONE hateful slur ever ever ever then one day pretend he repeatedly used it. Thats not helpful.

There literally saying he got banned for saying the first four letters of negative which happened AFTER he got suspended. ROFL.

Twitch make it up as they go along the fucking morons.

They could've enforced on any number of rants about "mentally ill....mental illness....mentally challenged" ....and that's just for starters. The "Hate Speech" rules are intentionally vague. But this is besides the point....Twitch can do whatever they damn well please. People know all this stuff going in...it shouldn't be surprising. 

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3 hours ago, Selene304 said:

but he is right about at least being warned

Why? Lets say that they updated the policy to cover hateful slurs for the first time and they also didn't email him about the new policy or give any heads up at all. What things require a warning beforehand? It is a completely normal thing in life to have consequences happen without a warning.

Even with the past infractions expiring after a few months, Twitch may still consider that history of punitive measures when they look at things.

Anyways, like people pointed out, it doesn't matter because Phil isn't going to sue and attempt to prove that what Twitch did is legally wrong.

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1 hour ago, Another_Derich said:

Why? Lets say that they updated the policy to cover hateful slurs for the first time and they also didn't email him about the new policy or give any heads up at all. What things require a warning beforehand? It is a completely normal thing in life to have consequences happen without a warning.

I'd like to mention that normally, that's already covered in the agreement, (not just for Twitch, but many other websites as well, it's a standardized practice).

That is by stating in their TOS something along the lines of "We may, at any time, and at our sole discretion, modify these Terms and Conditions of Use, including our Privacy Policy, with or without notice to the User. Any such modification will be effective immediately upon public posting. Your continued use of our Service and this Site following any such modification constitutes your acceptance of these modified Terms.", in Twitch's case:

TwitchTOS.thumb.png.7bfb257c71a76ed2dd10161b12fc2844.png

I believe there are some examples where the court was against this practice, when no notice was provided after the website changed their terms, however Twitch does send you emails about updates, (possibly, I think YouTube does).

If you're expected to accept the new revised terms just by continuing to use the site, that's considered a browsewrap-agreement or similar, as opposed to a clickwrap-agreement, where the user voluntarily agrees to accept them, (and thus better chance of being enforced).


So in theory, even if Twitch didn't send an email, (which I doubt), they're covering themselves with the browsewrap, which ironically enough, and also completely irrelevant to this conversation but worthy of noting, is what Phil himself is using on the Fan-Art thread:

Browsewrap.thumb.png.5a14b5307d322ef2790a09953081ef9f.png

This is Phil's browsewrap agreement.

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You guys are free to talk about whatever you want, but don't attack other users, especially admins like Phil on here.

I see people throwing "con artist, scammer, fuck face, begger" etc around and you're getting suspended for a week. You can talk about the subject without flaming people.

I don't care about vulgarity as long as it's not aimed at someone.

12 hours ago, esi said:

The "Hate Speech" rules are intentionally vague.

That's a pretty big problem. If Twitch has a list of what words are banned that would help everyone, instead of taking action when they feel like it.

I've heard tons of streamers use "retard" and I never hear about people getting suspended for it.

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Phil's point is very simple: twich accused him of wrongdoing with no evidence. Meaning, they could do that to anyone, and because they have basically no real competition, they can afford to do that to people. Phil is literally 1 in a dozens of millions. That wouldn't be so bad, but then they told him the reason why he got unpartnered, and of all the things they could came up with, they went for the most confusing of all. Every single day twitch streamers get suspended/banned for the weirdest reasons , but he got unpartnered. How isn't that suspicious?

Now: I don't know about you guys, but if I was a person with a public image, I wouldn't want my name to be associated with such accusations, both on a personal, social and business level. There would be serious ground for a lawsuit here or, at least the public apology Phil demanded ... except there's one small detail that Phil might have overlooked in the heat of the moment: Twitch has never publicly released any statement regarding the reason why they unpartnered him: PHIL HIMSELF DID. At this point , even he were to take action, the best he could do is accuse twitch of falsly unpartner him.

But if he kept the email for himself and other parties were to preassure twtich to release a statement... now that would have opened a whole new storyline.

 

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10 hours ago, KGhaleon said:

You guys are free to talk about whatever you want, but don't attack other users, especially admins like Phil on here.

I see people throwing "con artist, scammer, fuck face, begger" etc around and you're getting suspended for a week. You can talk about the subject without flaming people.

I don't care about vulgarity as long as it's not aimed at someone.

That's a pretty big problem. If Twitch has a list of what words are banned that would help everyone, instead of taking action when they feel like it.

I've heard tons of streamers use "retard" and I never hear about people getting suspended for it.

I agree...I watch a streamer who uses the word "retard" every other sentence. It's why I think Twitch simply wanted to move on from Phil...and "Hate Speech" is the avenue that they chose. It's a vague rule and Twitch knows it would hold up in a court of law. 

I don't think they like the optics of DSP as a whole on Twitch...and they know there won't be some huge outcry in Phil's defense. IMO

Edited by esi
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19 hours ago, Another_Derich said:

Why? Lets say that they updated the policy to cover hateful slurs for the first time and they also didn't email him about the new policy or give any heads up at all. What things require a warning beforehand? It is a completely normal thing in life to have consequences happen without a warning.

Even with the past infractions expiring after a few months, Twitch may still consider that history of punitive measures when they look at things.

Anyways, like people pointed out, it doesn't matter because Phil isn't going to sue and attempt to prove that what Twitch did is legally wrong.

It is not required. He is right that it is not good manners to just ban though they are not obligated to warn him. They should have given him the COURTESY of a real reason with examples. I think DSP doesn't understand calling people idiots or morons or pieces of shit is actually a hateful slur. I don't even think he thinks about it. Of course jmo

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4 hours ago, kill-chan said:

Phil's point is very simple: twich accused him of wrongdoing with no evidence. Meaning, they could do that to anyone, and because they have basically no real competition, they can afford to do that to people. Phil is literally 1 in a dozens of millions. That wouldn't be so bad, but then they told him the reason why he got unpartnered, and of all the things they could came up with, they went for the most confusing of all. Every single day twitch streamers get suspended/banned for the weirdest reasons , but he got unpartnered. How isn't that suspicious?

Now: I don't know about you guys, but if I was a person with a public image, I wouldn't want my name to be associated with such accusations, both on a personal, social and business level. There would be serious ground for a lawsuit here or, at least the public apology Phil demanded ... except there's one small detail that Phil might have overlooked in the heat of the moment: Twitch has never publicly released any statement regarding the reason why they unpartnered him: PHIL HIMSELF DID. At this point , even he were to take action, the best he could do is accuse twitch of falsly unpartner him.

But if he kept the email for himself and other parties were to preassure twtich to release a statement... now that would have opened a whole new storyline.

 

They accused him of wrongdoing without presenting it to him but that isn't "no evidence". They can actually get rid of people without even giving a reason at all so yeah they can do this to anyone for any reason they want. I have to disagree and say that what Twitch "came up" with isn't confusing at all though. I think almost anyone can come up with an idea of what Twitch would consider a hateful slur from his streams/videos.

"I don't know about you guys, but if I was a person with a public image, I wouldn't want my name to be associated with such accusations, both on a personal, social and business level."

It is YEARS too late for that, unfortunately.

1 hour ago, esi said:

I agree...I watch a streamer who uses the word "retard" every other sentence. It's why I think Twitch simply wanted to move on from Phil...and "Hate Speech" is the avenue that they chose. It's a vague rule and Twitch knows it would hold up in a court of law. 

I don't think they like the optics of DSP as a whole on Twitch...and they know there won't be some huge outcry in Phil's defense. IMO

It is an interesting theory but I'm not sure why a company would take this kind of route when they can do the same thing without giving a reason. If they don't like the optics of Phil on Twitch, why wouldn't they just ban him outright in April instead of de-partnering him. He was still on Twitch streaming and doing the same things but without the income stream that involves Twitch. That is along the lines of the theory of Phil getting removed because of mass reports. You can still report people who aren't partnered en masse.

I think a better and more fun theory to craft, if anyone is inclined to do so, is something that examines why Twitch wouldn't want him to make money through their systems. Not one that feels the reason is vague, or one that feels it is just because of one instance, or one that assumes it is because of the word "retard."

1 hour ago, Selene304 said:

It is not required. He is right that it is not good manners to just ban though they are not obligated to warn him. They should have given him the COURTESY of a real reason with examples. I think DSP doesn't understand calling people idiots or morons or pieces of shit is actually a hateful slur. I don't even think he thinks about it. Of course jmo

I think I just don't get this line of thinking because of my personal experience and experience of people I know with at will employment and the ways companies behave in general and don't give a fuck about the people who work for them. "Good manners" just doesn't fit anywhere in here. Most corporations aren't going to coddle you or be kind to you as an employee and aren't going to be your friend. Expecting that is just trouble waiting to happen.

Twitch is a company I've contacted a few times for various things and they are often slow to respond and take several weeks at a time. The reply tends to be terse and getting a reply after that is even harder. Sounds like some streamers are getting very special treatment if they get more than that and get extra information as a courtesy.

 

...

 

I'll throw out my list of factors that I think are at play together/theory :

1) Calling people "moron", "stupid", "mouth-drooling retard", "paranoid", "idiot", "mentally ill", saying that someone needs to "seek help", or anything that calls their mental health into question in a disparaging way

2) Context and history - very possible that Twitch has their own IRC history and back end save of streams even if they are deleted from displaying to normal users so they can investigate things, a history of infractions might come into play when deciding how they want to handle things

3) Twitch can take off-site things into consideration

4) Moderation and large scale moderation is extremely subjective - some people will punish streamers for xyz thing while another moderator/admin would let it slide. You can see that even in Phil's own streams.

5) The sheer number of reports - if Twitch say things happen once or twice in reports they may let it go but if they start looking back at all the reports and start seeing repeated pattern, they may not take kindly to it. A few people here talk about others they watch saying hateful slurs and not being punished. Well, are those people being reported for their history of language? Are those people getting a lot of reports in general from their audience? Is their audience watching them mostly people who don't like them?

 

But who cares, none of us here have even seen the email and its all just theories and conspiracies at play. Its fun to speculate at first and then grows boring and sometimes outlandish.

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On 5/21/2021 at 11:02 AM, Another_Derich said:

They accused him of wrongdoing without presenting it to him but that isn't "no evidence". They can actually get rid of people without even giving a reason at all so yeah they can do this to anyone for any reason they want. I have to disagree and say that what Twitch "came up" with isn't confusing at all though. I think almost anyone can come up with an idea of what Twitch would consider a hateful slur from his streams/videos.

"I don't know about you guys, but if I was a person with a public image, I wouldn't want my name to be associated with such accusations, both on a personal, social and business level."

It is YEARS too late for that, unfortunately.

It is an interesting theory but I'm not sure why a company would take this kind of route when they can do the same thing without giving a reason. If they don't like the optics of Phil on Twitch, why wouldn't they just ban him outright in April instead of de-partnering him. He was still on Twitch streaming and doing the same things but without the income stream that involves Twitch. That is along the lines of the theory of Phil getting removed because of mass reports. You can still report people who aren't partnered en masse.

I think a better and more fun theory to craft, if anyone is inclined to do so, is something that examines why Twitch wouldn't want him to make money through their systems. Not one that feels the reason is vague, or one that feels it is just because of one instance, or one that assumes it is because of the word "retard."

I think I just don't get this line of thinking because of my personal experience and experience of people I know with at will employment and the ways companies behave in general and don't give a fuck about the people who work for them. "Good manners" just doesn't fit anywhere in here. Most corporations aren't going to coddle you or be kind to you as an employee and aren't going to be your friend. Expecting that is just trouble waiting to happen.

Twitch is a company I've contacted a few times for various things and they are often slow to respond and take several weeks at a time. The reply tends to be terse and getting a reply after that is even harder. Sounds like some streamers are getting very special treatment if they get more than that and get extra information as a courtesy.

 

...

 

I'll throw out my list of factors that I think are at play together/theory :

1) Calling people "moron", "stupid", "mouth-drooling retard", "paranoid", "idiot", "mentally ill", saying that someone needs to "seek help", or anything that calls their mental health into question in a disparaging way

2) Context and history - very possible that Twitch has their own IRC history and back end save of streams even if they are deleted from displaying to normal users so they can investigate things, a history of infractions might come into play when deciding how they want to handle things

3) Twitch can take off-site things into consideration

4) Moderation and large scale moderation is extremely subjective - some people will punish streamers for xyz thing while another moderator/admin would let it slide. You can see that even in Phil's own streams.

5) The sheer number of reports - if Twitch say things happen once or twice in reports they may let it go but if they start looking back at all the reports and start seeing repeated pattern, they may not take kindly to it. A few people here talk about others they watch saying hateful slurs and not being punished. Well, are those people being reported for their history of language? Are those people getting a lot of reports in general from their audience? Is their audience watching them mostly people who don't like them?

 

But who cares, none of us here have even seen the email and its all just theories and conspiracies at play. Its fun to speculate at first and then grows boring and sometimes outlandish.

You're right....the speculation does grow boring. 

My "theory" on the Twitch thing is that a person or person's at Twitch wanted to make this personal with Phil...the de-partnering was a way to humiliate him....since in reality it is a form of demotion. The actual reasoning for the de-partnering came after Phil continued to stream on Twitch...the "hate speech" email was again used to embarrass Phil...whoever did this was fully aware of the drama it would cause. I see no other reason to not just ban him outright....someone wanted to make an example out of him....and that's exactly what they did.  

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